cosmolinguist | bras and bad feelings

The other day I happened to see this weird...white...wire? with a blue tip when I looked down. It seemed like it was sprouting out of my skin just below my chin. But it wasn't, of course. It was the underwire from my bra, which had (as so many of them seem to) escaped through the stitching holding it in place.

I suppose I should consider myself lucky that this hadn't happened in long enough that I failed to recognize it. I bought this bra, and the other one I'd been wearing all the time, with a voucher I'd gotten for Christmas a year and a half ago, so that's a pretty good run.

And yet, I was so angry. I don't have money or energy to go buy more bras. I hate bras. I hate how stupidly designed they are, to look appealing rather than to be useful or comfortable to me as someone who has to wear them.

The sinister feeling stuck with me after the first glance of this rogue underwire had given me. I felt overwhelmed by the realization that this was going to keep happening. I am going to keep having to buy bras to manage the landscape of my chest, they are going to keep being uncomfortable and terrible and expensive. And suddenly I resented the hell out of this.

It just seemed so unfair. But that was a new feeling, and I tried to figure out where that sense of unfairness came from. It amused me that the best theory I could come up with is that it possibly seems unfair because the other bane of my body's existence, menstruating, has all but disappeared thanks to a happy side-effect of the birth control I'm on: some unexamined subconscious part of my mind had started to presume that this other burden too would be taken from me, surely, any day now...!

This isn't a gender thing. I am cis. Well...I don't feel like I have any sense of a gender identity at all, which technically fits the definition of agender and thus falls under the trans umbrella, but I don't even have enough genderfeels to have any problem with the gender assigned to me at birth so that makes me cis?

I think a lot about my friend Fred's excellent post about gender not as a spectrum between two colors but as a paint chart with differences not just in hue but in intensity. Their gender is near one corner, mine is way at the top in a shade so light I can't tell what color it is (which, as the post and comments say, is not the same as agender, because at least some agender people feel their absence of gender very intensely).

So it isn't gender dysphoria that I have, it's just this raging hatred for this one part of my anatomy. I find myself envying flat-chested people (whatever their gender). I am sad that I will never be one of them. There are some weird and dark thoughts under this that I don't even want to write down because they're kind of scary?

Anyway, this has drifted rather far from the point that I have to go bra shopping again and I'm mad about it.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

azurelunatic

Hello and well met, fellow traveler!

That sure sounds like body dysphoria, even if it's not specifically gender dysphoria.

Growing up, the only thing about gender I was absolutely certain of was that I was not a boy. My parents gave me enough space that I didn't have very many feelings about Being A Girl, except that periodically I would try to Be A Girl but it was too much effort and I couldn't sustain it. I wound up in a genderqueer chat group, and hanging out with a whole bunch of people under the genderqueer umbrella suddenly made it clear that I fit best with the agender folks. I don't feel my absence of gender particularly intensely until someone tries to shove me into doing something that tries to enforce gender upon me, like shopping for shoes or bras or weddings. Then it's a complete raging episode.

From:

momentsmusicaux

Is it dysphoria to dislike parts of your body on a practical level? That seems a bit of a stretch to me, but I don't know the technical.

From:

azurelunatic

There's dislike, and then there's raging hatred.

Many people I know dislike their uteruses. A lot fewer announce grimly to their gynecologist, "I know you don't like to take these out, but the *moment* the balance of pain and risk tips towards having it out, *I. Want. It. Gone.*"

From:

chanter1944

I may be being the opposite of helpful here, and I truly don't intend to be either helpy or a pain in the butt with the idea I'm about to throw out. If it causes a problem or just generally doesn't work, feel free to ignore it and/or tell me to buzz off. All that said, are you at all familiar with the term demigirl? I offer it as a possible, possibly useful avenue of research. Zero pressure. :)

Also, thank you for linking to your friend's gender as both hue and intensity post. That's an excellent explanation!

From:

ewt

Well, this was very helpful to me, so, thank you.

From:

cosmolinguist

It's such a good explanation, isn't it. :) I mean, no analogy is going to be perfect but after a long time that's still the one I find most useful.

I am aware of "demigirl" and it's not for me, but thank you for making sure I knew about the possibility.

From:

anankastick

Ugh! I hear ya! I'm genderqueer (and now legally male), so I do identify under the trans umbrella HOWEVER, I didn't have serious chest dysphoria until the cascade of horrible EDS related nonsense. Now, because of costochondritis and probably ankylosing spondylitis, wearing anything on my chest (just a tight t-shirt or seat belt will trigger this, let alone a bra or binder) is excruciating. I rip off the offending garment as soon as is socially acceptable. So my view of my chest has changed drastically over the last few years from casual indifference to growing resentment, even hatred. So it's a weird intersection of just straight up body dysphoria and gender dysphoria. It sucks. Sorry you're feeling it :/ (I'm just about to rant about it on my own journal...)

From:

cosmolinguist

Urgh, that sounds miserable, but thank you for sharing your experience. <3

From:

mathemagicalschema

So admittedly, the steps involved tend to be rather dramatic and expensive, however:

"I find myself envying flat-chested people (whatever their gender). I am sad that I will never be one of them."

There are options (top surgery, breast reduction)if you decide that you really can't hack it. I say this not out of any expectation that you'd be interested in those procedures, but sometimes knowing that you have a way out that you are choosing not to take can make experiences like this more bearable. It does for me, anyway.

From:

cosmolinguist

Oh I'm very interested, but they seem like a logistical nightmare and unlikely to happen so I've avoided doing anything about them.

From:

ewt

Commiserations.

I have a thing where every couple of years I become totally unable to wear either underwires, or bras without underwires. By the time the fluctuation goes full circle, I find that my old favourite bras are no longer being manufactured and I have to start again from scratch.

I've seriously considered making my own.

From:

cosmolinguist

Urgh, this sounds like such a nightmare.

I wish I could make clothes; so much about my life would be, well, not easier but more straightforward.

From:

meepettemu

Would fixing it (or getting someone to fix it) work instead? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.wikihow.com/Repair-an-Underwire-Bra%3famp=1

I’ve sewn up holes in the past and it saves the trauma of having to go get new bras.

From:

cosmolinguist

I will try to sew it as it is only the tiniest hole. But I know that still means I will peobsviy need new bras before long.

From:

meepettemu

Yeah- it’s that feeling of inevitability:/

From:

purplecat

Last time I bought bras (from Bravissimo since the experience there is a whole load easier than anywhere else I've been so long as you don't mind shop assistants looking at you naked - NB. but expensive) the shop assistants made a huge song and dance about not machine washing since that caused the wires to come out. Life is, obviously, too short, however I managed to buy on Amazon a kind of bra washing bag you can put bras in which prevents them getting twisted up. This was three or four years ago and I've not had a wire escape problem since - though I have also lost a lot of weight and my breast size has reduced (said bras are now obviously too big but again, life, it is too short) so it could just be that I'm putting less strain on them.

Anyway, this is a long way of saying that a cheap bra washing case might be a worthwhile investment to increase the lifespan of your bras.

From:

rmc28

Bras are SUCH A PAIN.

I have at least found the rough brand / size of sports bra that works for me, and decided I am Just Wearing Sports Bras OK for now and forever. But I have to buy new ones about every year, because life is Too Short not to machine wash (I do hang them to dry rather than tumble them).

Also I have now destroyed two of the bra-bags that are supposed to protect them in the machine in about a year, and I should probably buy more of those too.

From:

momentsmusicaux

You & I have spoken about this sort of thing before. I feel pretty much the same way you do, I think. I'm okay with being seen as male, but it's really not a big part of my sense of who I am.

And 'agender' feels a bit too strong a term because of that. Gender agnostic, maybe, in that I don't give a crap about it?

From:

po8crg

I've heard that described as "cis-by-default", which seems like a useful term.

From:

cosmolinguist

This is sort of how I feel. As far as I can tell, I'd find it equally not-worth-arguing-about whichever gender I'd been assigned at birth.

From:

bunnypip

I am now pretty much just wearing non-underwired bras, because I realised that I feel like more of a force in the world if my underwear isn't actively attacking me (stabbing me with spiky metal, crushing my rib cage, pulling out the more dodgy of my dodgy shoulders). Having been conditioned into thinking that anyone with big boobs 'needs' underwires this has taken some mental adjustment, but actually it's fine (and soooo much better). I've also got some of the things called 'sleep bras' or similar for wearing round the house so I can at least go out to the shop, put the bins out, answer the door etc without feeling I have to put a bra on. And those have been a revelation to me too. And then I saw a set of 3 in bi colours so I bought them. So I may be letting it all hang out even more than usual at BiCon this year (but probably also wearing a corset at some point, because somehow that is more comfortable for me than a bra)

From:

haggis

Corsets support the weight of your breasts at the waist instead of at the shoulders, unlike bras.

I really like "what makes me feel like more of a force in the world?" as a metric for decision making!

From:

sfred

Yes!

From:

cosmolinguist

Corsets are definitely more comfortable than a bra. Sadly I don't have any that fit me any more.

Inspired partly by this comment, I've ordered a few random styles of what are being called sports bras of the kind that wooldn't work for me if I were doing a sport but I got the first one today and it seems great for normal things and, like you say, isn't stabbing me or digging in anywhere. It even looks kind of cute! So whatever you are letting hang out at BiCon, I promise you won't be alone. :)

From:

worlds_of_smoke

Well...I don't feel like I have any sense of a gender identity at all, which technically fits the definition of agender and thus falls under the trans umbrella, but I don't even have enough genderfeels to have any problem with the gender assigned to me at birth so that makes me cis?

I don't think that the fact that you don't have any problem with your GAAB makes you cis, to be honest. From what I can tell, cis people feel attached to their gender, even if it's not a strong attachment. If they were asked to list what aspects are most central to their identity -- i.e. race, religion, sexuality -- their gender (or gendered roles such as "mother" or "wife") would be near the top of the list. What makes me agendered is the fact that I literally have no fucks to give about my gender and I know I would feel this way if I had a penis. If I list the qualities that are central to my identity, gender is at the bottom of the list.

As far as dysphoria goes... I split gender dysphoria up into 2 types. Obviously, this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

1. Social dysphoria is being distressed that you have to abide by or are judged by societal gender standards. For example, I am fucking dreading going to work after I get my degree, because I know that there will be societal pressure to wear makeup. Yes, guys can wear makeup nowadays, but the reason I would be pressured to wear makeup is the reason that cis women are pressured to wear makeup -- i.e. "we want you to look pretty, but not like a whore". I'd be expected to go all out so I end up with a flawless, feminine face because that's what women are supposed to do.

Another type of social dysphoria involves clothes. Having to go shopping for pantyhose and femme clothes gives me panic attacks. Bras are less of a problem for some reason. That could be because, honestly, I would probably wear bras all the time if I could. Yes, they're gendered clothing. But, to me, the fact that my boobs bounce is more feminine than bras themselves to my brain -- especially since the bras I get are basically heavy duty sports bras. Lace and frills are fucking sensory hell and I refuse to wear underwires. All I want is a bra that will hold my breasts up against my chest wall. Yeah, I'm a DDD and the type of bra I like can make my Venus of Willendorf body look extremely feminine, but I feel more comfortably me when my tits are pressed close against my chest wall and not able to bounce.

A third type of social dysphoria is when people assume your gender and treat you accordingly. For example, there was this little old lady on the bus once that told me "Oh, you know how us girls need to stick together" and it just enraged me. And let's not even get into the fucking pregnancy tests I have to take to get my Depo shot every 10 weeks. -.- Another example would be a MTF trans person getting upset when they're called "sir". I kind of lump this under social dysphoria, but it could be a third type of dysphoria all by its own. IDK.

2. Body dysphoria is, in short, "I should not have these parts" and, at its worse, can be a burning hatred of those parts. For me, things like gynecologist appointments and mammograms are HELL because those are 100% gendered female and my brain screams that I should not need this because I should not have those parts. It is a burning hatred. And, y'know, I'm generally okay with my tits. I'm even okay with my reproductive system, as long as I'm not menstruating. I can accept them as a part of me, just like my stomach and my ass and my hair. But I hate the "You're a woman and must have a mammogram" aspect of having tits so much that a part of me hopes for cancer, just so I have a reason to get them removed and don't have to deal with being gendered because of these stupid fucking body parts. I mean, it's bad enough that I was DEPRESSED last year when they sent me the "Congratulations! Your mammogram came back normal!" letter after my mammogram. And every fucking time I have to get a pregnancy test and am reminded that the medical complex really thinks I should be using my uterus for something, my hatred of my reproductive system gets triggered.

So that's body dysphoria.

Combined, those would be gender dysphoria. But not all trans people feel every sort of dysphoria. For example, I have a friend who doesn't really have body dysphoria. She's not having gender confirmation surgery because she's fine with what she has. But she did have social dysphoria before she transitioned. Now that she's transitioned, though, it doesn't really bother her if people accidentally "sir" her. But other trans people may deal with severe dysphoria of all types. I suppose there could be trans people who don't have either type of dysphoria too, but I haven't met any AFAIK.

ANYWAYS.

tl;dr: I obviously can't tell you how to identify, but I identify as agender because I have no attachment to my gender, unlike a cis person. So I think that you could be agender too. And I would think that your reaction to having to get a new bra would fall under social dysphoria‎, while those moments of burning hatred for your breasts is body dysphoria.

From:

momentsmusicaux

> A third type of social dysphoria is when people assume your gender and treat you accordingly. For example, there was this little old lady on the bus once that told me "Oh, you know how us girls need to stick together" and it just enraged me. And let's not even get into the fucking pregnancy tests I have to take to get my Depo shot every 10 weeks.

Oh I hate it when people say something to me about 'us lads' or 'man stuff' or whatever. It feels as stupid and irrelevant as if they were to say to me, 'us white people'.

I mean, I'm male, I'm ok with people knowing that because of how I look physically, but I don't want them to treat me as a person based on that.

From:

worlds_of_smoke

yeah, I'm not sure that's quite a gender dysphoria thing or just a normal "treat me like a person" thing. I include it in this because it can give me very visceral dysphoria symptoms and impacts my mental health in a way similar to the other things I listed.

From:

azurelunatic

The best thing about my endometrial cancer was the free hysterectomy. I feel you.

From:

white_hart

I am in a similar cis-with-very-little-sense-of-gender-identity position (I am very clear that I'm not a man, and I don't mind being a woman apart from the patriarchy and the social expectations of femininity, but I'd be just as happy to be agender; I might explore that further one day but it's not enough of an issue for me to be that bothered about it, and I wouldn't want my agender team member, to whom their gender identity is a really important thing, to feel I was Single White Femaling (um, personing?) them), and I am going through a phase of being really uncomfortable with visible manifestations of femininity, including the femaleness of my body. I can't wear about half my clothes because I own lots of dresses and they just make me twitchy now, and I also really dislike my (rather ample) chest.

And bras are evil.

From:

barakta

I quite like my breasts as body parts go but I fucking hate bras and even more emphatically expletive hate clothes shopping.

I gave up on underwires some years ago as my ribcage and clavicles are squiffy cos of my officially dodgy skellington bits (as opposed to the dodgy but not diagnosed as squiffy bits). But I'm not that big busted, D/DD with 32/34 band size.. But compared to my shoulders which are very narrow cos skeletal-squiffy means finding clothes which aren't too tight for boobs AND which my shoulders don't fall out of, is hard... Narrow shoulder or small neckline clothes are designed for A cup people... D/DD cup designed clothes assume you have shoulders to match... Fuck clothes, especially women's fucking clothes which are all poo.

I absolutely relate to the gender-wibbly without wanting (at this time) to define as trans cos that doesn't feel right for me... But I've got a very narrow strip of body presentation which doesn't feel wrong... It's very much a presentation/gendered clothes/hair thing not a body dysmorphia thing for me...

Nila and I once talked late into the night about how amazing deflatable/inflatable breasts would be. Inflate for sexeh clothes and deflate for practicalities... Or boobs-inna-drawer of different sizes for same purpose...

Hope you can find new bras without too much pain or £££ or stress to you.

From:

lilysea

Oh, bras :(

Several years ago I discovered that I could no longer wear bras of ANY sort - 30 minutes of bra wearing = 3-4 days of severe neck and shoulder agony.

Not-wearing-bras has helped IMMENSELY with the neck and shoulder pain - but now I get
friction from my large breasts rubbing against my chest;
and pimples on the underneath of my breasts;
and cellulitis on the underneath of my breasts;
and fungal infections on the underneath of my breasts;
and staph on the underneath of my breasts...

(Suggestions welcome for me. I can't do any straps on my neck/shoulders, though, not even if they're soft cotton. And I can't do underwires.)

From:

ewt

I wonder if some kind of boob tube type of garment would help with this?

From:

ceb

From:

sfred

*sends love*

From:

jesse_the_k

Bras are evil.

I am so short-waisted I *must* wear underwires, and my tits are so flat that without a bra they'd be caught in my waistband.

From:

mrs_leroy_brown

That horrible moment when your underwire goes bad and stabs you in the nork....:/

I do machine wash my bras, but put them in a mesh bag and that seems to help them live a bit longer. I also have a wire-free sports bra in circulation which doesn't give me the lift a trad bra does, but avoids the issue entirely.

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