This sceptred isle

[cosmolinguist]

Tell me the differences between England, Britian (or Great Britain) and the UK.

I don't mean in the 6th-grade geography sense; I got the basic idea. And if I didn't, there are plenty of websites that would tell me all about it. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is a pretty self-explanatory name. Great Britain is this island that I am now on, and England is part of that. Simple enough.

But all those terms, I am assured, have separate histories and reasons for existing and all that, which is why they all mean different-but-similar things. And, especially since they're sort of overlapping terms, I can see why they're used sort of indiscriminately or inaccurately at times. They're similar enough that people screw them up or don't think about using precisely the right one, but they're different enough that osme people will surely get very annoyed if you use the wrong one.

And that's what interests me. It's not just a matter of geography and government; people get really excited about these things sometimes. It's a matter of history. It's all feuding and religion and empire and oppression and other such stuff.

But even in mundane ways, people are really concerned about these minutinae of geography here.

I mean, in American History I was taught how weird the colonies were because people thought of themselves as "a Virginian" or whatever, rather than "an American." This sounded strange at the time, but now I realize that I was not only looking at this with the benefit of history--the way you do when you say things like, "You mean they didn't think of gravity until then?!"--but also, I underestimated one important fact about these people: they were from England! (Or were they from Britain? Or the UK? Gah!) And that means they're ... well, either provincial or appreciative of subtlety, depending on who you ask.

If you, say, told a person from Liverpool that you thought they were from Manchester, they'd probably kill you! And those two towns are 26 miles apart! (Whereas I, ever since I got to college, have been thrilled to find someone who's even heard of, say, Mankato, a comparably-distanced town from where I live.) So of course if people like that spend months on a boat travelling thousands of miles across an ocean and end up in a strange new land, they're going to say "I am from Virginia, which is so much better than that Massechusetts!" Or whatever. That's probalby why all those states over there are so little--they were made by English people! Viriginia's the size of England anyway! Probably.

So. I forgot where I was going with this.

Oh, right. Take that feeling that makes people from Manchester sure that they're not at all like people from Liverpool, multiply it by a million zillion, and you have some idea of how unhappy it makes some of these Welsh or Scottish or Northern Irish or English people to hear that other people are confused on where they live and what kind of person they are.

Most (if not all) of the British people I know even slightly are English. So I find myself wondering: Do you call yourselves British? Or English? Or different things depending on the circumstances? What circumstances would those be? Do you think about it at all?

Yes, these are the sorts of things I think about. And I'm sure I've got it all wrong; being American I'm doomed to, aren't I? But it's better than doing laundry.

Comments

[ultraruby.livejournal.com]

I think about it quie a bit. I used to call myself British, because I thought that was maybe more inclusive and nicer, and because on some level I feel a little bit uncomfortable about English nationalism, because its been an excuse for trampling a lot of people and ideas for quite some time. But. Since I started going out with someone Scottish, I have much more of a tendency to call myself (and think of myself) as English, both in recognition of the political diffrences between the nations, and as an ackowledgement of who I am. England made me, or rather, Southern England did. That doesn't make me closed off to the rest of the countrty or the world, but it gives me a starting point, which is handy.

[ultraruby.livejournal.com]

I have lost my abilty to type! Argh! Sorry.

[cosmolinguist]

Ah, ultraruby does not fail me! I thought of you when I was writing this; it sounded to me like the sort of good, thinky things you write that I enjoy so much and wish I could emulate. I'm glad to have friends who will share with me what they think about random things, and who think interesting things. Even when you chose "British" as your term of choice, you had a reason; you did it thoughtfully (or at least with some thought you came up with later and tacked on to the explanation ;-)), which I think is cool.

And I think it's interesting that you associate "English"ness with trampling on people and ideas; that's quite obvious really but didn't occur to me in this context yet. You'd think it would, as I'm from the foremost trampling-on-things country these days, and Andrew knows well that pointing out certain things and saying "that's your country!" is one of the best ways to get me to cringe or slap him these days. I don't really want to be associated with that! (Though I have other reasons for not liking the term "American", as well, and anyway this isn't about me!)

[tiltcorazon.livejournal.com]

I used to call myself British, because I thought that was maybe more inclusive and nicer, and because on some level I feel a little bit uncomfortable about English nationalism, because its been an excuse for trampling a lot of people and ideas for quite some time.

I use the same reasoning for tending towards English. British has always been a little too "manifest destiny" for me.

[harry-t-skull.livejournal.com]

I always put that I'm British. (Or European just to annoy people). Or English when it isn't going ot be considered rascist !.

It does depend on circumstances though, I was born and raised in England, however some of my family is Irish, some is Scottish, some East European, so I don't know if I have much english ancestory

As far as I know, Britian was so named because it was an island of wode wearing trbes. Likewise Britanny in North West france.

However when the Angles invaded from Denmark, they pushed the Brittans over into Wales, Scotland, Devon / Cornwall and Ireland. The territory of the Angles became England (still Angleterre (sp) in French)

I tend to refer to myself British since I have more roots with the Brittians than the Angles

[cosmolinguist]

I don't know if I have much english ancestory

Another of the many, many related issues I didn't get to in this post is how the English perceive things like nationality. They find it ridiculous that Americans say they're Norwegian/Italian/Irish/whatever because their great-great-grandparents might have lived there for a while. Andrew's sister has a boyfriend who calls himself Scottish becuase his family's from there and she laughs at him and tells him "You live in England, you were born in England, you're English!" Which is not to say that one's heritage is not interesting or important, even to English people, just that they don't make a big complicated deal out of it, something I for one find a refreshing change.

I tend to refer to myself British since I have more roots with the Brittians than the Angles

The Wikipedia article on England shows that many of the European languages' name for England reflect the presences of the Angles:

* "England" (Danish, German, Swedish)
* "Angleterre" (French)
* "Inghilterra" (Italian)
* "Inglaterra" (Spanish)
* "Anglia" (Hungarian)
* "Anglija" (Slovene)
* "Engleska" (Serbo-Croatian)

And of course it's way different in the Celtic languages. Wikipedia also says (I think) that "Britain"/"Britainnia" came from the Romans' name for the Brigantes, the largest of the Celtic tribes they found there (who were in turn named after a Celtic goddess, Brigantia or Brigid).

Anyway, I like your reason for choosing British over English; the etymological perspective is an interesting one and (as you can see) something I'm personally fond of.

[tubewalker.livejournal.com]

I belong to an old celtic tribe - The Cvnts

[irkthepurist.livejournal.com]

i would call myself british as english speaks of slightly petty nationalism. i may call myself english though to a scotsman or a welshman just because that's tactful... and if in america i just say "i'm from near london" as it's all they'll ever understand

[cosmolinguist]

english speaks of slightly petty nationalism

Many people have mentioned this English = patriotic thing. Which I've come to accept, but I don't quite get it; England has at least some history as a nation--as people sharing a more-or-less common culture--whereas Britain/the UK is a political entity that's never seemed to go down that well with all its constituent parts. But I guess, as Britain/the UK is sort of the current "default" option, and it'd take some effort for England to be more distinctively its own (and as the people putting forth that effort, to fly flags and celebrate St. George's Day and whatnot, get scoffed at by many other people), it's better just not to bother? :-)

in america i just say "i'm from near london" as it's all they'll ever understand

Oh, dear. I know how painful that must be for you. :-)

[stealthmunchkin.livejournal.com]

Britain - the islands where the Britons/"Celts" lived.
Great Britain - the largest of those islands
England - Angle-land. The part of Great Britain that was repeatedly colonised by Romans, Angles, Saxons, Normans, etc.
Scotland & Wales (and to an extent Cornwall) - the parts of Great Britain that the original indigenous populations were pushed into by each successive wave of invasion.
United Kingdom - official name for the country containing all of the above.

Generally English people will use the terms 'English' and 'British' interchangeably, because Scotland, Wales and Norn Irn don't really impact on us on a day to day basis. The people of those countries get annoyed by this in the same way that Canadians would get annoyed at being called Yankees or something.

[barrysarll.livejournal.com]

I'm an eighth Scottish, and pro-Union, so I tend to call myself British, although I am also very English.

[cosmolinguist]

What makes someone English? Or is that just one of those impossible questions?

[classytart.livejournal.com]

Hello - I was reading my friendsfriends page and this leapt out.

I call myself British. My mum is Scottish (living in England) and my dad is English (Southern English, living in England) but works in Scotland 4 days a week. I was born in England, started school in Scotland, did most of my schooling in England, then came to Scotland for university. I have lived 8 of my 24 years in Scotland, the rest in England.

Hence British.

It really, really annoys me when people use "England" or "English" when they mean "Britain" or "British" because it is not the same thing. When Americans (I'm afraid it's always people from the USA, for whom you are right - there is no name) ask where I am from and I tell them I live in Edinburgh, Scotland, they almost always ask "Scotland, England?" No. The England Is Britain bothers me.

However, I find the Scottish tendency to slag off all things English on no real principle equally repellent. Especially when Scots take a dislike to me and want me to be "just visiting" a city I have lived in for six years just because my accent doesn't fit. My accent is very neutral English, with short vowel sounds, but no regionality: I speak Standard English, which makes me a minority. :)

The Welsh seem to be much better behaved, except when they start speaking Welsh when a tourist enters a village shop. :)

So yes. I am British because the other terms are divisive. But I am not European as a first choice because my attitude is decidedly British.

---

As for the heritage thing, the "I'm Scotch!" thing that tourists from the USA always use as an excuse for wearing their new kilt and drinking a Laphroaig and Coke (Well, you have to drink malt whisky in Scotland) annoys me. Nationality isn't just where you are born, but should include aspects of at least where your parents are from. Mainly it is attitudinal, though. If one of your grandparents was born in Scotland but you drink a malt with Coke and spell 'colour' with no 'u' and think that petrol is 'gas' and overpriced in the USA you really, really are not Scottish. Never mind Scotch.

Sorry about that. :)

[cosmolinguist]

Thanks for your comments.

I tell them I live in Edinburgh, Scotland, they almost always ask "Scotland, England?

Oh. Oh dear.

I'm from Minnesota, which is close enough to Canada that sometimes my accent will fool people into thinking that I'm Canadian. I'm happy to let them think so. I don't want to be from a country that does things like this to you!--much less all the other bad things it does to lots of other people.

Mainly it is attitudinal, though.

I agree. I'm adopted, and what my parents were told of my nationality was a few random European countries. But my dad's family is of German(ish) descent, and my mom's family is from Norway, (these are my adoptive parents, I mean; I have no idea who my "real" parents are) and most of both sides are Lutheran. This is all very typical for Minnesota; the sort of stuff you hear about from Garrison Keillor. And that's what I feel I am. I may have got my genes from France or Ireland or Hungary or whatever it was, but I had lefse at Christmas every year and I have (well, my mom has, in a cupboard, but for me) a very old plate that's hand-painted with words in whatever language they speak in Luxembourg. That's what I am.

If one of your grandparents was born in Scotland but you drink a malt with Coke and spell 'colour' with no 'u' and think that petrol is 'gas' and overpriced in the USA you really, really are not Scottish. Never mind Scotch

Forgive my ignorance, but what's the distinction between "Scottish" and "Scotch"?

If one of your grandparents was born in Scotland but you drink a malt with Coke and spell 'colour' with no 'u' and think that petrol is 'gas' and overpriced in the USA you really, really are not Scottish. Never mind Scotch

[xianrex.livejournal.com]

I think of "British" as being a description of a people, like "North American", if anyone ever said that. Like "European", but for those islanders.

That was a good point about the colonists identifying with their state. I wonder if that stems from the tendency to remain in one place, which would therefore encourage loyalty to one's own "people".

[cosmolinguist]

I wonder if that stems from the tendency to remain in one place, which would therefore encourage loyalty to one's own "people".

That may well be. And it would explain why the US isn't like that; it isn't old enough. It was still being explored and figured out (and purged of those nasty redskins) when we got railroads and things that made it relatively easy for people to move around.

[angel-thane.livejournal.com]

And, especially since they're sort of overlapping terms, I can see why they're used sort of indiscriminately or inaccurately at times.

New Hampshire, New England, and the US are also overlapping terms, but from my experience, they're rarely used indiscriminately. I think it's more that people from your country can't be assed to learn the difference. =P

THe ironic thing of course, is that while people from Scotland feel remarkably different to those from England, if their homerule (devolution) gave them even half as many powers as a province had, they'd not know what to do with them. =)

[cosmolinguist]

I think it's more that people from your country can't be assed to learn the difference. =P

But it's not just my country. (Though I'm not trying to downplay their stupidity or laziness and their part in this.) People who live here do it too!

[irrtum.livejournal.com]

I am an English, emphatically not British. This might be to do with having grown up in close proximity to South Wales. Oh and - are you and stealthmunchkin coming to the quiz again on Monday? This week I shall hopefully present you with belladonnalin and demiurgician.

[cosmolinguist]

This might be to do with having grown up in close proximity to South Wales.

Heh.

And yes, I would love to come again, and I would love to meet belladonnalin and demiurgician, with whom I have gotten to talk enough to think that they are both very cool.

And this week, I have hair that looks almost like yours!

[dyddgu.livejournal.com]

Lordy! I have no time now to go through 127 replies...
You could wait till I finish my thesis and blag a copy though ;-)

[cosmolinguist]

I don't even know what your thesis is about, actually ... do I? (Or "should I?") But I remember you asking what people thought of when they thought of Britain, which I think is one of the many things that sort of sparked my interest in this subject. If it's about any of this stuff (the comments are good, really--they're my favorite part!) I'll happily read your thesis--I do that sort o thing, read theses for fun. :-)

[kennedybak.livejournal.com]

Bloody hell, 148 comments. Before I read any of them, my answer is: I call myself British, but I don't have any objection to being referred to as 'English'. The English cultural identity is essentially what gets called the British cultural identity; Scotland has a reasonably distinctive culture, Wales less so as it's been integrated with England for much longer (since the 1300s IIRC; Scotland only joined up with England in 1707).

I'm always careful to call the country I live in 'the UK' unless I'm referring to something specifically English, like the football team or whatever. This is simply because it's the name of the country, and I'm pedantic like that.

I can't comment on how the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish feel about being part of the UK, but I certainly like the idea that Scotland and Wales aren't foreign territories (NI is a separate hornet's nest), and I do think there is an essential national unity about Britain (again, excluding NI for the moment) that transcends the borders of the three countries. So I like to consider myself British rather than English.

[kennedybak.livejournal.com]

I should add that, unlike a lot of English people with Scots/Welsh/Irish ancestry, both sides of my family have been English for at least a couple of hundred years and probably more than that. My surname originates from a village in Lincolnshire. Just a bit of context, there.

[lostpositive.livejournal.com]

Hello,

I'm a friend of irkthepurist and I thought I'd join the fray. I'm a Scot living in Wales.I consider myself Scottish first British second although I don't consider myself overly nationalistic. Living in Wales does make me aware of my Scottishness since everytime I open my mouth it's obvious I'm not Welsh. My ancestry is typically mongrel my dad's mother was English.

Em oxo

[(Anonymous)]

Living in Wales does make me aware of my Scottishness since everytime I open my mouth it's obvious I'm not Welsh

I guess could say the same about being here, though obviously it's a different situation. Still, I know what you mean; I talk a lot and it's weird to have that mere fact be something that singles me out as a weird foreigner.